"mixed bear/cat druids" mentioned in Latest Changes topic

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cremor
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"mixed bear/cat druids" mentioned in Latest Changes topic

Post by cremor » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:52 pm

I'm wondering what you mean with the phrase "mixed bear/cat druids" in the latest post in the Latest Changes topic. Bear and cat both have their own spec in 5.0.4 (Guardian for bear and Feral for cat). There are some spells that are exclusive to one of the specs like Tiger's Fury for Feral and Savage Defense for Guardian.
To see all those spells you can use the official Talent Calculator, it has a "spec" spell filter.

So it should now always be possible to differentiate between those two, correct?

Maihem
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Re: "mixed bear/cat druids" mentioned in Latest Changes topi

Post by Maihem » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:51 pm

For mixed bear/cat druids, the detection has a heavy preference toward cat spec to keep the bear "tanking" rankings clear.
Yes, there are now two separate feral specs: "Feral" for Feral/Cat (DPS) and "Guardian" for Feral/Bear (Tank).

The main problem with this is that a bear druid could cast one or two bear spells, then go cat the rest of the fight for the DPS boost. We expect that with detection based solely on spec spells, the bear (tanking) rankings will be dominated by bear-spec cats.

We feel it would be more appropriate for these characters to be ranked on the cat-spec ladder. Therefore, we have decided to add cat and bear form abilities to spec detection and give cat abilities a high weight compared to bear spec spells and form abilities. This causes bears using cat abilities to be ranked on the cat (DPS) ladder as intended.

Buraan
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Re: "mixed bear/cat druids" mentioned in Latest Changes topi

Post by Buraan » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:55 pm

Because of the way vengeance works now, Bears that are actuallly tanking will vastly out-dps any bear that goes cat for most of the fight. So as cremor says, putting heavy weighting on the spec only abilities (TF/SD) would definitely be the way to go.

Before, it was a problem because bears that went cat could do 95-99% of the damage of a full cat spec druid, so this was a problem, now bears get a LOT of extra damage from vengeance so when not tanking the damage is significantly decreased, even going cat isn't especially great damage, even if it is slightly more dps than a non-tanking bear.

Bear rankings are going to be dominated by bears that are actually tanking as opposed to bears that tank for 10 seconds and cat for the rest of the fight (which would in fact be pretty poor dps).

In fact, if you weight it too heavily in favor of being ranked as a cat, a fight like wind lord mal'jarak where you 2 tank for a bit then 1 tank, you could run into a problem where you get ranked as a cat because after the adds die, there's nothing for you to do, but the amount of damage you did in the beginning with ~200k vengeance means you out-dps all cats on that fight.

Maihem
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Re: "mixed bear/cat druids" mentioned in Latest Changes topi

Post by Maihem » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:18 pm

Hmm, alright. That makes sense. We should probably revert to spec spell-based detection then.

One question: some druids, for some fights, do not use any spec spells. How would you weigh cat vs bear form abilities in this case? Note that the number of times this happens is small, but non-negligible.

cremor
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Re: "mixed bear/cat druids" mentioned in Latest Changes topi

Post by cremor » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:38 pm

Maihem wrote:One question: some druids, for some fights, do not use any spec spells. How would you weigh cat vs bear form abilities in this case? Note that the number of times this happens is small, but non-negligible.
There are really people out there that don't use a single spec specific ability the whole fight? :shock:
But don't you then have this problem with all classes/specs? Why are the cats/bears special in this case? I'd mark anyone who doesn't use a single spec specific ability as "unknown". Their fault. ;)

Maihem
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Re: "mixed bear/cat druids" mentioned in Latest Changes topi

Post by Maihem » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:40 pm

I suppose that's an option. I'll have a look at how often exactly this happens.

EDIT: Forgot to say that yes, this can happen for all specs. For some reason it happens mostly to druids though.

Buraan
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Re: "mixed bear/cat druids" mentioned in Latest Changes topi

Post by Buraan » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:32 pm

Guardian:
10 Savage Defense
18 Bear Hug
76 Enrage

Feral:
10 Tiger's Fury
16 Shred
18 Savage Roar
26 Predatory Swiftness (Passive)
38 Omen of Clarity (Passive)

Ferals should proc omen of clarity no matter what they do, so that's pretty easy to differentiate.

So you could basically have it that, if none of the above spells are present, but its some sort of cat/bear thing, then rank as guardian. Then any ferals should automatically get put correctly due to omen and any druid worth their salt will be using some of the above abilities so it makes distinguishing very smiple.

Essentially, 99% of the time using the above spells for detection will work, for the edge case where none of the spells are present, its probably pretty safe to say its a guardian. ( I need to double check that omen procs in bear form for a cat, but i'm pretty sure it does)

Edit: it does.
Last edited by Buraan on Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Buraan
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Re: "mixed bear/cat druids" mentioned in Latest Changes topi

Post by Buraan » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:35 pm

I should say that at the point where none of the spells are being detected and its some crazy mis-mash of moonfire+wrath mixed with some rejuvs and bear/cat abilities, (i.e. you have no idea that its even a feral/guardian/resto/boomkin let alone just feral/guardian) just mark unknown.
If you'd like I can list the other druid spec, spec-only abilities as well, as the lvl 90 talents may cause some confusion, like healing touch can easily appear in a feral log because of DoC or HoTW.

Maihem
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Re: "mixed bear/cat druids" mentioned in Latest Changes topi

Post by Maihem » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:41 pm

I've based the current spec spells list on data from the wowdb talent calculator. As far as I can see, this doesn't include level 86-90 spells, but I expect that post-expansion content will work just fine with spells up to 85th level. We'll add the new spells as they become available. For now I think we'll just only include single spec spells, that would prevent any issues with HotW style healing. Will see if I can revert the spec detection to spec spells only, no cat/bear mixing tonight or tomorrow.

Buraan
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Re: "mixed bear/cat druids" mentioned in Latest Changes topi

Post by Buraan » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:58 pm

There is only a new spell at 87 and a new talent at 90. They shouldn't be needed or provide much use to the spec detection. However, symbiosis is a great one as no 2 druid specs get the same ability from symbiosis. So for example, a druid who casts Ice Block is 100% resto. Problem is, they are all spells that aren't really used rotationally, so whilst it certainly helps, a lot of the time they aren't going to be used.

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