[SOLVED] Bear DPS Records

wag-misty
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:32 pm

Re: Bear DPS Records

Post by wag-misty » Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:35 pm

So this is still an issue in FL. this week i tanked ragnaros , i'm playing with an hybrid spec and do both dps and tanking depending on what guild needs.
I managed to pull off 17K dps as tank because you can switch to kitty a lot on this encounter due to the tank switching.
I was counted in the end as feral dps while i actually did the tanking job alone with the other tank.
i understand the separation is done according to what abilities deal damage and all but i think a way to fix this would be to take in account damage taken aswell.
any other ideas?

edit: there comes the log/links

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-o ... 246&e=4789

now lets look at dps and specs:

damage done : (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-o ... 246&e=4789)

ranking infos: 7 - Mïsty Feral/Cat 202 9215346 5118724 1012766 False 16962.3 http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-o ... 246&e=4789

note that i took around 5million damage which is around the same amount as the other tank a quick look at the damage taken part (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-o ... 246&e=4789) and u realise right away i was tanking on this fight.

I really think getting the damage taken in the formula for ferals would supress all that mess that has been around feral cat and bears and everyone would be quite happy about it.

wag-misty
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:32 pm

Re: Bear DPS Records

Post by wag-misty » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:30 pm

any chance to get an answer, some opinion etc ? ;p

wag-misty
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:32 pm

Re: Bear DPS Records

Post by wag-misty » Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:51 pm

on alysrazor for some reason top ranked feral dps are actually feral that tanked. Awesome job.., WoL is just some huge crap for ferals , if no one cares about it great then at least we know where u stand.
If u do care about it then you might wanna consider including damage taken (by who) into spec calculation.

Buraan
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 12:01 pm

Re: Bear DPS Records

Post by Buraan » Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:27 pm

Been watching this discussion for a whlie, and it seems to have stagnated and indeed this hasn't really been examined with regards to the firelands content.

Also since the last post here, the same topic arose on theincbear.com forums: http://theincbear.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=289 if people want to see the discussion they had there.

The MAIN issue I think really is how very very very simple it is to game the log, but also how very close that is to what "may" happen in a optimal situation if the log were not gamed. In fact, it can even be gamed unintentionally.

Firstly, lets examine the bosses in firelands

The top fights where I've heard people complain are the following:

Alysrazor - this is actually the flipside of the coin, as for once a "tank" will do the most dps. The adds die so fast these days that you don't actually spend many mangles in bear form to kill them, as a result its easy to out-weight your bear mangles with cat mangles throughout the rest of the fight (although you should really be shredding, but its very possible that its inconvenient) (Problem = bear ranked as cat - this problem also arose on chimaeron for an offtank bouncing to/from bear if they were standing in front of the boss)

Baleroc - in a 2 tank tactic, the offtank spends a lot of time in cat hence these high ranks, can attack from behind, so no need to mangle, (esp if there's a decimation as it gives you the excuse to bear mangle). I personally think that this is a legitimate way to "tank" the boss however it seems perhaps "unfair" on the bear main tanks who solo tank this (I'm in this category myself, not to bothered about it though).

Rhyolith - with 2 tanks there is significant downtime between sparks wehre a bear can go cat and swipe, or dps the boss. hence the problem with the rankings. Again this is imo legitimate, even if frustrating for people like me who 1 tank it.

shannox and beth...i can't really see how these would be messed up. perhaps some swipe spam on adds during decimation, or going cat when not tanking in the last phase. The dps is very similar to not bothering though, as vengence remains high throughout. Maybe a problem with ranks if a cat grabs the boss at the end because the mt dies.

Staghelm - 1 tank so...yeah, pretty hard to mess this one up, unless its intentional (will discuss later). Again perhaps the problem as above if the mt dies (this really highlights the problem, but i will discuss this later)

Rag - some tanks switch between cat and bear whenever not tanking. I myself start in cat until our pala has a few stacks at the start, so i can berserk in cat for ~35k dps. This is again legitimate, and in reality the dps difference between cat switching and staying bear isn't huge, but its there.

SO what's going on:

I get the feeling that there are some people that look at a log like baleroc and say that because the character spends so much time in cat that its should be invalid, or somehow they're doing it wrong and that they deserve a higher rank. In these cases all that can really be said is "technically" they're doing it right, if you feel hard done by because you HAVE to main tank or solo tank it, then say hi to every dps class that never gets to fly on alysrazor... or are in a guild where dot-cleave on shannox hc isn't allowed...or don't have tricks, or any other millions of reasons where raid strategy and composition have to be correct to get ranked. If anything, you should view it as a challange, if you can do more dps as a bear than someone else does as a cat then...well congratulations, you're awesome.

The problem as in alysrazor, really is a problem in my opinion, cats can't, or at least "shouldn't" be doing that for dps. Yes i guess a warrior could also tank the adds for crazy dps, but then so could a cat....as a cat. The thing is, its perfectly possible that this is accidental, which brings me on to the next point. Which I made a while ago :

ITS TOO DAMNED EASY

Let me explain:

Cats mangle has 0 cd except the normal gcd, so any feral forced to dps from the front, (so you're alys tank that mangles the add he's interrupting or for some reason mangles instead of shreds when dpsing the boss in the downphase) you're gonna rack up a LOT of cat mangles extremely fast, in fact, it takes (given unlimited energy) something like 10 seconds to do the same number of mangles that it takes a bear 1 minute to do.

Bear mangle is a 6 second cd (see above) however, given a berserk in bear form, that's again gonna add a lot of bear mangles to your tally

Normally cats only need to mangle 1 time per minute, or even 0 if there's a bear tank or arms warrior etc.

All this means is that a cat can VERY easlily be ranked as a bear, sometimes even just 1-2 mangles in bear is enough. say for example you go bearform for cracles on nef...G_G you are now ranked as a bear.

Likewise, bears can very easily be ranked as cat, as they are normally (tanking 101, boss faces the aggro target) in front, so forced to mangle as cat.

All this means that the scales are all to easy to tip, either accidentally or on purpose. This is the real problem that needs solving I think. Forget the ones where bears go cat when they aren't tanking. I think this is probably an easier problem to fix than the "problem" of people who can't get ranked because their strategy doesn't allow it.

For example:

argaloth: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-l ... 584#Buraan

I didn't tank anything...at...all, i just charge-> bear mangle x1 then go cat, about half way through in the firestorm i went bear to put another couple of mangles in, and that's it...that *isn't* tanking. I wan't performing anything to do with the tank role, I didn't taunt, etc etc.
(I was in bear spec...by accident, wasn't intentional, so actually that dps is quite low)

However you also have things like: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-l ... 862#Buraan
To use the other boss in the same instance. I DID tank, or at least I got the debuff and did all the things I'm supposed to do as the minimum requirements for tanking that fight. I just told my offtank to take the boss off me sooner, and I'll taunt late. Pretty similar to what you may decide to do if you had an undergeared tank that you were worried about dying. Just get him to tank the boss as little as possible.

To the people who would say that the 2nd thing is not tanking, and its unfair. you could do that yourself, really easiliy. In fact, I have a rank in 25 man doing the same thing, but in a random pug with 20/25 players, I didn't even tell the other tank to specifically let me be cat. Just timed cds well, and pulled of some good numbers.

Anyway, hopefully there's some food for thought here. Certainly there are things that need addressing, but we need to identify what it is that we want, and how its supposed to work. Or even if its worth the effort.

The last thing I'll say is, ranks really aren't everything, focus on doing what you are supposed to do for your raid, and focus on doing it well. If you get ranked because of it, then great, if not oh well, there are other fights. Honestly, as nice as it is to see a shiny orange 1 by your name, there are more important things.

-Buraan

Fraya
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:20 pm

Re: Bear DPS Records

Post by Fraya » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:17 pm

Well no wonder the weightings are wrong.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreads ... utput=html

Mangle (Cat) isn't part of the cat rotation. All a cat has to do is Bearmangle one time with another cat/arms war to apply mangle to bork the rankings.

If you want this to be completely solved, do this:

Mangle - Bear (100)
Maul (50)
Lacerate (200) - I'm assuming this is the application of lacerate, and not the tick. It needs to be application, tick is irrelevant.
Pulverize (500)
Swipe - Bear (10)
Thrash (10)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mangle - Cat (50)
Shred (100)
Swipe - Cat (10)
Rake (80) - Assuming application. If this is a tick, reduce to 15.
Rip (80) - Assuming application. If this is a tick, reduce to 8.
Fero Bite (80)
Savage Roar (50)
Ravage! (200)

Here are a few reasons why this will work.
  • The only real issue here is Cats parsing as Bears, not the other way around.
  • A cat never spends more than 20% of his time in Bear. If he ever does, then he is a Bear.
  • A bear rarely spends more than 70% of his time in Cat. There are no exceptions to this rule so far in Cataclysm, but it is possible that a fight may come up with extremely short-duration adds that require a beartank.
  • The primary item of the cat rotation is Shred.
  • The primary item of the bear rotation is Lacerate and Pulverize. This is not because they are the most important, but because a cat will rarely spend enough time in bear to actually cast these spells. Whereas it is possible that a cat might go Bear to Berserking a trio of mobs into dust.
  • Both specs will frequently change forms to deal AoE damage. It cannot be used as a judge.
Heroic Ragnaros is the fight where the line is most likely to be breached as far as Bears spending a lot of time in cat goes. This is my highest Tank DPS number thusfar on it, and probably the most likely log to misrecord based on the numbers I posted. I spent as much time in Cat as I possibly could.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-s ... 001&e=1708
It comes out with 9480(Cat) vs 21430(Bear)

Here is a log of a Cat being misrecorded as a Bear on Beth'tilac
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-v ... 531&e=1948
It comes out with 15280(Cat) vs 2270(Bear)

I would be very interested to see if these numbers could be applied to a fight and have it come out wrong.

Buraan
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 12:01 pm

Re: Bear DPS Records

Post by Buraan » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:24 pm

Pretty sure if you're 2 tanking baleroc you can achieve some really low bear % uptime, as you're in cat for most of the fight apart from decimation blade. Same for the situation where you are 2 tanking rhyolith and you're on spark tanking. (although it depends how fast your raid kills the spark). Either way, rag certainly isn't the extreem of low bear uptime. Still, I do like that rating system, it seems a marked improvement. With the changes coming in 5.0 though, this is going to stop being an issue. So I guess we can put up with odd rankings for a few months.

Tharkkun
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:05 pm

Re: Bear DPS Records

Post by Tharkkun » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:59 pm

I'm just curious if this means my data on Shannox is actually False?

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-b ... /rankinfo/

If so something needs to be re-examined because I was in bear form the whole fight.

Buraan
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 12:01 pm

Re: Bear DPS Records

Post by Buraan » Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:20 am

looks correct to me, says it has you listed as a bear, its just not better than your previous best, so unless the other one is incorrect, its accurate

agelaus
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:11 pm

Re: Bear DPS Records

Post by agelaus » Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:14 pm

Was looking up stuff online about this and was always being pointed here. Does anone know if this has been addressed? One option that could be used is simply tracking how much time is spent in each form. I see that they have the ability to track buffs, so they coudl easily track time spent in each. If you spend more time in cat form then you are parsed as a cat, and vise-a-verse if you spend more time as a bear.

Maihem
Site Admin
Posts: 2747
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:14 pm

Re: Bear DPS Records

Post by Maihem » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:35 pm

We've modified the feral spec weighting to (hopefully) better separate bear and cat players. The set of weights roughly conforms to the one that Fraya posted above, but has been slightly modified as we cannot differentiate DoT applications and ticks. Changes are applied retro-actively since the release of patch 4.2 (i.e. the introduction of Firelands).

New reports will automatically be categorized according to this set. We will be recrawling existing reports over the next few days.

The new weights are:

Code: Select all

Class   Spec        Spell           wt.     ID

Druid   Feral/Bear  Mangle (Bear)   100     33878
Druid   Feral/Bear  Maul             50      6807
Druid   Feral/Bear  Lacerate         30     33745
Druid   Feral/Bear  Thrash           10     77758
Druid   Feral/Bear  Swipe            10       779
Druid   Feral/Bear  Pulverize       500     80313

Druid   Feral/Cat   Mangle (Cat)    100     33876
Druid   Feral/Cat   Shred           100      5221
Druid   Feral/Cat   Rip               8      1079
Druid   Feral/Cat   Rake             15      1822
Druid   Feral/Cat   Savage Roar      50     52610
Druid   Feral/Cat   Fero Bite        80     22568
Druid   Feral/Cat   Ravage!         200     81770

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